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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - MIG Welding

About to invest in my first MIG welder and would like to know opinions on a gasless (those ones with the gas flux core thingys) and seperate gas supply MIG system. I understand that the gassless system can give messy welds if you are working outside (something about the gas being dispersed quickly by the wind?) Anyone have an opinion?

Ta
James Ballard

James,

The gasless systems are the ones which are better to use outdoors as the shielding generated is less likely to be dispersed compared to the shielding gas with a MIG welder. Strictly speaking gasless (fluxcore) is not MIG. Gasless do leave a messier weld and are not as good for thin material such as car body panels compared to a MIG.

What are you looking to weld, how often and what is your budget.
David Billington

Gas every time! Gasless always make a messy looking weld with sludge all over it..gas MIG welds are much cleaner. And..if gasless was so good, why does everywhere sell gas conversions!
Robin Cohen

I am no expert, but have found that when welding outside with gas MIG, sometimes the gas shield gets dispersed by the wind. The solution is easy - you just turn up the gas flow!

Which leads me to a different point - but still on topic. What do others do about arranging an economical supply of gas? Those silly little white canisters are just a waste of time. Is there any alternative to BOC rental bottles? The problem with those is that for a low level use, the rental costs far outweigh the gas price and it gets expensive over a period of time.
Guy Weller

Hmmm. Knew I'd probably get the two confused at some point! My use is likely to be irregular but I will be hoping to use it on body panels and other bits and pieces. My budget isn't massive but it's one of those costs you have to pay and I'd rather pay a little more for a better result rather than cut corners, I don't need any help to screw it up more than I'm already likely to!
James Ballard

I find that the small bottles last ages, just turn on the gas only till you can just hear a hiss, make sure you turn it off after use and weld inside
Will Munns

http://tinyurl.com/3j2al9

This sort then??? I become proud owner of a garage today and I'm looking forward to filling it with toys!
James Ballard

Re -- gas cost

I just needed to replace my argoshield bottle, but only needed it for a few days!!!

I had to take out a 12 month rental with boc -- pay for the gas -- AND the admin charge!!!!!

They said if I returned the bottle early, they would refund me for the unusde whole months!! :-)

I returned it 2 weeks later(still in the same calendar month) and they refunded me a full 12 months!!as I had not gone into the next month -- how pleased was I ???? !!!!!
Mick - nearly ready to paint

James,

Do you already know how to use a MIG welder, if so I would suggest trying to give the prospect a trial run to see how well it works. I have had the "pleasure" of a couple of small Clarke MIGs recently, although I think the low end ones seem to have the same or very similar mechanicals from the ones I have seen, one was a Clarke 90 and the other a 150. The 90 actually ran sweet and did nice welds when dialed in for the current setting, the only gotcha was the torch which turned on the wire feed before the gas, the gas valve being in the torch rather than a solenoid in the box, so you had to remember to squeeze the trigger firmly to turn the gas flow on. Both the 90 and the 150 had the same basic mechanics. The 150 was a sod as the spool tensioner tended to jam on the D shaped shaft and that coupled with a poorly moulded spool of varying width led to varying wire feed rate which made it difficult to get a working wire feed setting. Some tweeking of the spool tensioner helped correct that. The 150 also had the only knurled groove wire feed roller I have ever seen and it didn't like to relinquish it grip on the wire, even at light tension, when the wire stuck to the tip and this led to birdcages in the wire feed assembly, removing the tops of the teeth sorted that. The 150 did OK welds when set-up and should have been able to do as good as the 90 but the 90 was on Ar/CO2 and the 150 on just CO2 which doesn't produce as nice a weld. Duty cycle on the small welders can also be a problem if using towards the top end but can be improved with the addition of a fan to improve air flow in the case. All the low end units I have seen used a small motor with poor electronic control which was quite susceptible to speed variation with varying load such as tensioner load or varying curvature of wire liner in the torch lead. Another SIP welder, 150 IIRC, I used recently also had the same basic wire feed unit by the looks of it, it may have had better control electronics, it did work better but still had the tell tale whine of the little motor working away. It had a better wire spool tensioner mechanism and a nice torch, internal gas solenoid, this sort http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIP-TOPMIG-150-TURBO-MIG-WELDER_W0QQitemZ110240816949
but without the euro connector. Still aluminium transformer like the little Clarkes so duty cycle will be lower than a copper transformer, which must be pricey these days.

Guy,

I just bend over and pay BOC, the standing charge hurts the most these days. I have known people that knew publicans and got CO2 cheap (free) but have been told that that has largely been clamped down on these days. It was mentioned that Distillers? did gas rentals but I have never looked into it. If you were going to do a lot welding in a short period you can rent the BOC bottles by the month IIRC. Expensive/day but may work out cheaper than yearly rental or white bottles. If you want expensive white bottles go to aquarium suppliers, same white bottles I think but different market, higher price. The CO2 is used as plant food when bubbled through the aquarium water.

Robin,

Some systems use dual shield ie fluxcore and inert gas shield. What works best for the job at hand, larger industrial in that case.
David Billington

Guy,
just a quickie for you I got my bottle from my dad! He owns (owned) a pub and I'll see him later today. He may have one floating around his garage for a nominal beer token!!
Simon.
S McGregor

David,
Thanks for the essay ;)

I have not welded before and so wanted to buy one so that I could learn at my leisure before committing horrible atrocities to my car! What I'm hearing is that a MIG with gas supply is a better option, slightly more expensive to buy and maintain but a better result. In terms of choosing a model I'm restricted by budget and will need to go for something relatively cheap but if there is anything I should avoid I'd appreciate the heads up.

Ta
James Ballard

James,

I bought a Clarke 90A mig about 14 years ago and converted it to use a large bottle of gas (see post above to Guy), I replaced both inner and outer sills, floors both sides, full front assembly and many other minor jobs (including the neighbours garden gates! Be prepared!). I feel this was ample for the home user. Oh and it's still going now, though I only end up helping out other people at the moment.
Regards Simon.
S McGregor

Simon, could you add me to the list of people looking for reasonably priced CO2, as Steve (the lad you met when you picked up the wheels) is desperate to get going with the welder on the bug, but the price of gas is going to kill him!

p.s. do you think you might still need some storage space as we're trying to plan ahead for whos in and out in the next few months.

cheers


Nick

James I join in advising the "proper" gas shielded MIG

My mate over the road has a dual type Clarke one that he uses exclusively with fluxed wire

It gives proper orrible welds and I have often been called upon to give a cleaning up weld to his splatterfest method with my gassy MIG

Take your time, nip along to your local night school if they have engineering classes or pop along to your local garage for familiarisation lessons of a friendly mechanic

Always weld clean metal
Always weld metal held closely to the piece you are welding to
Always weld inside the bubble and if the wind can disturb the bubble, turn up the gas as Guy advised (then turn it down again if welding inside or in undisturbed air)
Always weld through a film of Aerosol Antispatter which will keep tip wear to a minmum and allow easier cleaning (Buy that at any welding suppliers shop, I usually use Machine Mart, there's one about two miles away)

If I have much welding to do I always return to BOC for the latest "mix" of Argoshield, good gas does make a big difference to how well the job goes. My BOC account is now dormant but ready to be activated if I need it again.
And as Mick says they are quite accommodating over useage.

I had a part full Argoshield cylinder at home for two or three years, paying for the rental annually was the only reason I no longer have it in my garage. When I tok it back I was credited with some money in my account off the next cylinder (which I may never need again...)
Bill

James,

my two pennies worth.

Go for a gas welder for the reasons as stated.
If you don't intend to weld loads, go for a lighter duty (above the hobby/DIY range)
I have a sip 90, good for small jobs
a sip 130 turbo, which welds a bit longer and is up to bigger jobs.
and a clarke 100 turbo, as old and battered as the hills, but I chuck it in the back of the landy, when welding elsewhere.

I would go for a turbo model if funds allow, and for car work Machine mart do have a decent range from my experience.

But e-bay thow decent units up time to time, if you can get one collection only it usually puts off a few bidders.

I'm still a novice with welding compared to other, I can do enough to get by, but many jobs I leave to lads in the know, but I did a 20 week night class at a technical college, it was great and really help understand procedures in more detail.


I use a bottle from a pub for the main welder too, always looking for another!

On that note, does anyone have a mig torch (non euro fitting) as the one on the sip turbo has been in an accident!

Cheers
Jim Stewart

James,

Do you know anyone that has or uses a MIG that can let you get the feel of one, advise or come along on a test. I don't want to be too negative about the little boxes as from some experience I know they can produce nice welds, but I do know a few people that have had many problems with them as well.

Bill,

Does your mate know if the welder is set-up correctly for fluxcore, the polarity is reversed compared to MIG and that would have a big effect on the weld. I have only used one fluxcore welder and that was a mates, SIP 150 IIRC. It did nice solid welds when set correctly, not as nice as gas shielded, the surface being rougher due to the flux blobs but if your mates ir producing 'orrible welds that would suggest a set-up issue or you have very high standards.
David Billington

Jim,

I don't have a torch but don't let a torch with a euro fitting put you off. From what I have seen euro fittings just clamp to the cabling and terminate the wires and can be removed. You then just fit it into the permanent fitting in the welder in pretty much the same way it fits to the euro connector.
David Billington

I bouaght my 1st mig welder several years ago at a pawn shop. and just bought a new one last weekend


I rarly need one ...maybe 3-4 times a year...So I purchased a gasless one from Harborfreight...for $120.00 I broke my rule of buying only high end tools, but for no more then I'll use it, I think it will do fine


the one thing I learned and that you need to know about low end welders is you cant use them continously for long periods of time...aka 20 minutes non-stop....that sorta burns them out

But I have found the welder like I bought is perfect for my purposes...its easy to use, uses household elec. small in size, light weight, and will last a long time if used with in perameters, and weld just about anything I need to do myself

as to the mess it spatters off,,,yeah thats bad, but a few minutes with an angle grinder will clean it up really nice.

this is the one I bought...
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44567

prop
Prop

I use a migmate 130 Turbo.

Turbo means "has a cooling fan" ;)


the grip on teh wire can be lostened by backing off the spring loaded clamp.

The gas comming out after the wire feed is due to a faulty torch, all the pieces which make up the torch are available seperatly, but this problem is probebly the piece of bent steel that makes up the "switch", simply open the torch, bend it so it makes contact later and robert is a close relation to your mother
Will Munns

David,

The only welder I know near me is Rob Multisheds and I've bothered him about things so often that I'd be loathed to hassle him over this as well.

This looks like a wonderfully cheap option

http://tinyurl.com/3jm299

But is probably a little bit weedy for body work (thoughts?)

So I think I'll go for a cheap as I can manage turbo model from ebay and hope for the best! Looking at this as the top contender

http://tinyurl.com/6ztufu

Many thanks for all your advice chaps!
James Ballard

Hi Simon,
Good to see/ hear you again! Nick said that he had met up with you.

When I was last making a "serious" amount of use of my MIG I had a BOC account. Which was OK when it was in use, but a lot to pay once the main job was over. Then for a while I used pub CO2 but that source ended when the publican I knew moved away. Since then I have used small white bottles, but I really don't like them (cost and always run out at inconvenient times)
I do have an empty brewery CO2 but I am not sure of its vintage and have no current contacts for exchanging it.

Guy
Guy Weller

Hi Nick,
looks like I'll be ok for storage, my building work is not starting until late May and a friend moves into a new house (with nice big garage MMMMM!) who can give me some space. If there are any prblems I'll drop you a line.

As to the gas, spoke to my dad, they leave the pub at end of this month and any bottles the chap doesn't pick up will be made available for said beer tokens!! I'll let you all know.

Simon.
S McGregor

Will,

<<the grip on teh wire can be lostened by backing off the spring loaded clamp.>>

In the case of the Clarke 150 I was tweeking I could set the wire tension so that the feed didn't birdcage but the knurled roller really did grip too well and the welders owner tended to do the tension up too high. By removing most of the depth of tooth from the knurl the tension was far less important and could easily be adjusted to feed the wire correctly but the roller would slip when the wire stalled without leading to a birdcage. The little 90 didn't have a knurled roller and I haven't ever seen another feed roller that was.

Regarding the torch wire/gas flow I may have a look at it when that way next but when you realised you had to pull the trigger to the stop rather than just to turn the wire on all worked fine.
David Billington

Find out where your nearest penny fair or auto jumble is, and go along and buy a co2 cylinder from them. Not as clean as argoshield, but beggars can't be choosers.
Shawn

Yes David, we know my mate Dave has the reversed connections on his welder. TBH I think it is laziness that stops him from disconnecting, repolaritising* and learning to make good decent welds.

I wonder how he would get on if I moved away

I know I'd have to buy a lathe and horizontal miller and engineering power hacksaw, so maybe I had better get resigned to tidying uop after him
:-)

*? ? ?
Bill

I'm on a weldathon at the moment.

A good web site with tutorials and a very friendly forum is: www.mig-welding.co.uk

I'm using a secondhand clarke 150te. Find it very good. Using Co2/Argon mix with a big cylinder. You can find gas dealers who are DIY friendly, just takes a bit of hunting down, my cylinder is on £25 deposit with £25 refills, no hirer charges, it stands about 4 foot tall and 9 inches in dia.

I would avoid the SIP machines, have not heard much good about them.

As for size, well for car body work you need 30 amps, or maybe less, the problem with the cheap sets is they do not go low enough. Somethimes the bigger sets do not go low enough too. However normally the bigger sets have better duty times, ie how long you can weld before they overheat and cut out.

Also the flux wire sets often don't do low enough, takes more amps to make them work well, they are messy too, as previously mentioned.

If you can afford it Oxy/Cet kits do a better job and is a very useful garage tool.

Arc welders can do the job in practised hands, many years ago I rebuilt the front of a mini with an arc kit, wouldn't thave the patience now.

Also look out for secondhand spot welders, I picked up one for £50 a year ago, good for factory finish looking joints, also dead easy to use.

Markdj

I use a clarke 160T Mig, I bought it last October cost me just over £200 new. I've had no problems with it and I'm very happy, unlike the sip mig that I borrowed from a friend. As for gas I use CO2 pub size cylinders, they cost me £10 plus vat for a new bottle outright, no exchange.

Kevin
K Grice

the only thing I can add is to remember to buy a decent light-sensitive head mask so you have both hands free, makes a huge difference.
David Smith(davidDOTsmithATstonesDOTcom

Hold on.. Forget a BOC contract. I got fed up buying those tiny disposables and Oxford Welding supplies sold me a 4foot high bottle for £40 and £12 to fill it with CO2. No contract, it's lasted years and a refill now is under £20! Considering a disposable lasts about 15 minutes, this is WELL WORTH IT!! They are based just outside Witney. The only problem is that they can't sell you argon, so if it's steel welding then you're OK.
Robin Cohen

OK, The reason I asked about gas supplies was because last time I bought it in big cylinders, it seemed that BOC had a complete monopoly. In fact they gave the distinct impression that it was ILLEGAL to get pressurised gas cylinders from any other source. That was early '90s and perhaps the situation has changed. Sounds like one can buy bottles from other suppliers now. Right?
Guy Weller

I get my co2 from a proper gas company, complete with ivoice/receipt. So I assume it's all above board.

Kevin
K Grice

Big gas bottles:

They should be certified, pressure tested and condition checked.

BOC is one national distributor, Air Products is the other biggie.

However; do a local google search for trade drink suppliers, many do C02 for DIYers, also fire extinguisher companies can often help. Aslo some farm type suppliers do gas.

There are smaller local gas supply companies, just a bit few and far between.

David mentioned masks, a decent variable tint mask will set you back £60, a fixed variable £40. Best with the former, they often have adjustment for senstivity, strip lights can cause problems also the speed they untint, useful for TIG welding and pulse welding, you pulse weld with MIG sometimes if it is really delicate.
Markdj

Mark,

I don't know what the amps were on the Clarke 90 I played with were but it should be great for car body thickness material. I laid various welds on the 4 settings on 18swg material and it ranged from too low a current to too high and risking burn through. Outcome does though depend on torch usage, wire and travel speed, and joint prep.

Fluxcore does have higher heat input into the base material IIRC due to the reversed polarity compared to MIG so is less suitable for thin material.

Are you serious about oxy/acetylene?. I learned it first but would not chose it over other options for a novice to learn first. A good introduction for TIG and beneficial for MIG. Not my first choice for car body repair although I used it and a stick welder on my sprite during the first rebuild as that is what I had. I do agree that it is useful to have around for localised heating, soldering, brazing, and welding in the right circumstances.

A spot welder is really good to have on a car like the sprite that was mostly spot welded originally. I would go for a 2mm+2mm capacity as some main panels on the sprite, inner and outer sills and some other panels, are thicker than 1mm. The common capacities being 1mm+1mm and 2mm+2mm.
David Billington

David

You are right Oxy/acetylene is harder than MIG, but does give better welds, in my opinion, wish I had a set too!! you can hire Portapaks (i think thats how it is spelt) to have a go with, and as you say, sets you up for TIG.

MIG is easiest, and as mentioned before do try and get someone to show you the ropes, it is the techniques that make all the difference, push the weld pool rather than pulling, holding the torch angle right, getting the 'frying' noise. Preping and setting the joint up, butt or lap, etc etc

If anyone does go looking for a spotwelder, do look for one with a built-in timer, much easier to get consistant looking spot welds.

I'm more than happy for anyone to pop in and have a go with my toys.. my email is markdjoyatidiotatblueyonder.co.uk remove the 'at idiot'
Markdj

This thread was discussed on 08/04/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.